Nurses in this country are the most rude, militant, chip of the shoulder bunch of wingers you could ever need. The problem is now they are required to do a useless degree instead of learning their primary function which is to care for patients on the wards. They now see themselves as an equal to the doctor and a lot of the time think they know better that the doctor does. And as for the degree(as it was suggested) being mainly academic? Come on. It’s as academic as a media studies degree, in other words a non degree that waters down the term ‘degree’. Why would anyone with any academic ability choose to do a nursing degree over a medical degree or choose to be a nurse rather than a doctor?
A nursing degree is a “a non degree that waters down the term ‘degree’.”? (and breathe, and relax, and think of bunny rabbits and unicorns…AND SMASHING THEIR LITTLE HEADS IN WITH A HAMMER!!!!)
I mention this chap’s opinion because, funnily enough, I was formally awarded my nursing degree…yesterday. This may seem surprising to those of you who know that I actually qualified as a nurse last September. Why this confusing state of affairs? Let me explain…
The graduation ceremony for the class of ‘07 took place in July. But I wasn’t able to make it in July. In fact, not a single student nurse made it to the graduation ceremony. That’s how much of a non-degree a nursing degree is.
The reason none of us were there was because our academic year hadn’t finished. We were all out running around on our final three-month placement that’s intended to prepare us for being a staff nurse. Administering medications, carrying out clinical procedures, planning and documenting care. We were required to spend much of this placement acting as nurse-in-charge of the ward under supervision, so as to get us ready to do it when there wasn’t somebody looking over our shoulder. We kept doing this until the first week of August, while our fellow students had broken up for final exams back in May.
And that’s why none of us made it to the graduation ceremony in July. The academic year of a nursing degree lasts for 45 weeks, whereas a conventional university degree has an academic year of just 30 weeks. In other words, a nursing degree is 4-and-a-half years work crammed into 3 years. No lengthy summer holidays for us. That’s how much of a non-degree a nursing degree is.
Also, there’s no bunking-off lectures after a night of binge-drinking either. Not for stoodent nursey. You don’t get any of them barely managing to make it to one or two lectures a week and still cruising out with a Desmond 2:2. Registers were taken of attendance (both in lectures and on placement), and if you don’t complete enough hours then you don’t get to register as a nurse until you’ve made up the shortfall. That’s how much of a non-degree a nursing degree is.
Going back to The Oracle’s blog, she’s having to retake her first-year maths exam after only scoring a mere 90%. Admittedly it’s not hugely complicated maths, but the pass mark is *drumroll* 100%. Make a single error and you have to retake the whole sodding exam. Harsh, I know, until you think that a nurse should not be getting “only” 10% of his/her drug calculations wrong. That’s how much of a non-degree a nursing degree is.
Quite frankly, I’m getting more than fed up of the wilfully ignorant declaring nurse training to be a mickey-mouse degree, or that education is wasted on nurses. I’ve done a BA(Hons) and an MA prior to training as a nurse, and the nursing degree was far, far tougher than even the MA. Not least because I had to spend a full working week running around a hospital ward, and then had to go home and write an essay about it.
A nursing degree is not an easy option, and a nursing diploma isn’t much easier than a nursing degree. As for the suggestion that intelligence or education is wasted on a nurse, I invite anyone who believes that to take my “Too Posh to Wash” Nursing Exam that I posted last year. So maybe it’s time that a nursing education got a little frickin’ respect.
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February 20, 2008 at 8:19 pm
faithwalker
HI there- no problem on citing it
You’ll be pleased to know that I passed maths the second time with 100%. I know many people that didn’t.
We get 3 attempts at maths (as with pharmacology, I believe). If you still don’t get 100%, its bye bye.
Thats how much of a “non degree” nursing is.
February 20, 2008 at 8:33 pm
zarathustra
Hi Faith. Congrats on passing your exam.
February 20, 2008 at 8:36 pm
beakie
Opinions about nursing education are like assholes - everybody has one. To paraphrase Dirty Harry. Everyone thinks they know what they’re talking about because hey, being a nurse is just about wiping bums and flirting with doctors, isn’t it?
And everyone knows that those who can’t do, teach right?
February 20, 2008 at 8:40 pm
faithwalker
I love flirting with doctors and wiping bums. Thats the only reason I do it, obviously.
February 20, 2008 at 10:08 pm
TheShrink
I was agog to hear that some nurses don’t wear stockings and suspenders and giggle at doctors’ quips any more. I stongly suspect some of them may not even be female. What are nurses scattered around our wards for, then?
I know, I know, no more biccies for me this week . . .
February 20, 2008 at 10:27 pm
dazedandconfused
I like flirting with bums and wiping doctors ….
Hmmm that did not sound quite right.
What is the Daily Mail actually for anyway? The journalist who wrote the article seems to have produced some very high quality articles.
http://www.journalisted.com/da.....ticles=yes
February 20, 2008 at 11:11 pm
azulinebloo
Who “buys” the daily mail? What a load of absolute shite they come out with.
On another note, I finish mid-spetember and my graduation isn’t until the following June. By that time, being a student will be but a distant memory!
February 20, 2008 at 11:15 pm
azulinebloo
p.s. I am still waiting to meet the doctors that look like them on the telly shows like ER and Grey’s Anatomy. I think I’ll jack it in if I don’t meet some soon. It is just a piss easy course I am doing to fill the time after all.
February 21, 2008 at 7:43 am
zarathustra
One of my former nurse lecturers told me that she still gets relatives asking her “when are you going to marry a nice doctor?”
She said her stock answer that she always gives is “the day I come across a ‘nice doctor’ you’ll be the first to know.”
(with apologies to The Shrink et al)
February 21, 2008 at 8:06 am
beakie
I know, I know, no more biccies for me this week . . .
Milo privileges have also been withdrawn.
I’ll have you know that zarathustra is often to be found in stockings and suspenders, giggling with the SHOs over a plate of bourbons.
February 21, 2008 at 8:13 am
zarathustra
Only at the weekend, Beakie. Gotta unwind somehow.
February 21, 2008 at 9:51 am
Mandy Lifeboats Adrift
Congrats on getting your degree, Z.
I’m not always a big fan of the education system although I think learning (as a continual thing) is essential.
Heard something yesterday about a high proportion of students dropping out of uni. No evidence provided as to why but the thought of and being in debt must deter alot of people. Or maybe people join thinking it is going to be one thing and it ends up another.
My daughter seems to love it….mind, she has another 2 years to complete and in life anything can happen.
Anyway, that is off on a tangent and I don’t see why nurses shouldn’t get degrees but would be interested to find out, live and direct, what plusses it brings to their work.
Hows about you Z? How has it improved what you do?
February 21, 2008 at 11:01 am
faithwalker
Only the other day did I pop into work in my high heels, suspenders and tight vinyl uniform.
I didn’t get much work done though, because I spent most of the day picking up doctors jaws from the floor and feeding them choclate digestives and cups of tea.
When I wasn’t doing that I was busy fluffling patients pillows, mopping their brows and feeding them grapes.
I love my life.
February 21, 2008 at 11:02 am
faithwalker
Did I say vinyl? I mean rubber- or whatever that stuff is that my sexy uniform is made out of.
February 21, 2008 at 11:31 am
Jan
“What is the Daily Mail actually for anyway?”
See above under “wiping…….”
On a side note, I went to a meeting about BME service issues yesterday, and was pleased to note the diversity of the biscuits available.
February 21, 2008 at 12:03 pm
TheShrink
Meh, keep your Milo, I need more coffee to keep the blood (which my body ceaseless seems to make) from diluting my caffeine stream. Missing the chocolate digestives, though. You’ll have me and my patients all getting up to this malarky next. Be tricky to sell it as therapeutic activity to the Chief Exec though.
“I went to a meeting about BME service issues yesterday, and was pleased to note the diversity of the biscuits available.”
BME. Diversity : Tick!
Fantastic
February 21, 2008 at 2:19 pm
lsnduck
“No evidence provided as to why but the thought of and being in debt must deter a lot of people.”
Student finance is my job (mainly bailing out students with hardship funds, but primary funding as well), and from what I see not many people drop out because of finance (well, that may be because we bail them out). Debt does put people off from starting in the first place, but it is far more likely to be other reasons that will see students fail to complete once they are on their course.
As for nursing courses, the nursing students (mainly DipHEs, but some degree) I come across work their backsides off. Especially compared to our typical undergrads.
February 21, 2008 at 4:47 pm
E
At the risk of being run out of this ere town I have to say the academic standard of my nursing diploma (1994 - 1997) was pretty dire and the courses I have attended since qualifying(modules in CBT and solution focused therapy at the same university and the mentoring and preceptorship course at another) have not been a lot better.
February 21, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Mr Ian
After being paid a monthly wage for traveling around for 3 years and meeting interesting but strange people in my area, they asked me to sit still for 3 hours and write down 4 answers to 6 questions.
Luckily I was able to rush it in 2 hours cos I wanted a cigarette.
February 21, 2008 at 5:27 pm
azulinebloo
Faith, does your hospital have the same uniform as mine?
http://www.mentalnurse.org.uk/.....tal-nurse/
February 21, 2008 at 5:45 pm
faithwalker
Wow- the very same!
February 21, 2008 at 6:32 pm
azulinebloo
The men don’t look so hot in it though…….
February 21, 2008 at 6:38 pm
azulinebloo
……..well, *some* men
February 21, 2008 at 7:29 pm
zarathustra
Hi Mandy
Anyway, that is off on a tangent and I don’t see why nurses shouldn’t get degrees but would be interested to find out, live and direct, what plusses it brings to their work.
Hows about you Z? How has it improved what you do?
I’ll give a serious answer to a serious question. I’d say it’s made me think more about what I do rather than just do it blindly, it’s made me want to look up research about a particular condition or intervention, and want to continuously broaden and develop my knowledge.
The actual difference between a degree and a diploma isn’t actually all that much in terms of structure. The main difference is that the essays are marked at a higher level in the degree (though you’re both answering the same question) and for the degree you have to do a 10,000 word dissertation. Doing the dissertation taught me how to delve into research, analyse it, criticise and then apply it in clinical practice. It also allowed me to develop knowledge of the subject area I was writing about (deliberate self-harm in adolescents). I’ve since used this knowledge in practice to help my patients.
Now I’ve given the serious answer, you may now all return to discussing PVC nurse uniforms and fishnets.
February 22, 2008 at 10:14 am
OFMN
Now, I’m ‘only’ (ha!) doing the Diploma, but I can honestly say it’s harder than my previous, relatively unrelated BA. Much more hard work, graft and effort. But maybe that’s because I’ve decided to add those three qualities to something I like doing…
February 22, 2008 at 10:41 am
Jan
“you may now all return to discussing PVC nurse uniforms and fishnets. ” The picture that links to Bloo would be complete only if she had a packet of biscuits in her hand. What type of biscuit is a matter of personal preference. Oh, and lose the hat. So passé.
February 22, 2008 at 4:05 pm
cellar_door
Not sure about PVC, but whoever designed our student uniforms was clearly a sadist…
With regards to nursing becoming all-degree, I have no objections, but hope they will sort out the funding. I would have done the degree if I could have afforded to - as a mature student with mortgage etc. I simply couldn’t manage on the means tested bursary….certainly wouldn’t have kept me in Jammy Dodgers…! I certainly plan to ‘top up’ to the degree once I have found a job that will fund it, as otherwise I fear being overwhelmed by graduates with shiny degrees in the not too distant future….
I have done a previous degree (forensic psychology…I know, serial tax-dodger!) and found that the written workload for that course was a lot greater…however, the topics were a lot narrower and didn’t require such a wide range of reading and knowledge…and also didn’t need juggling alongside a full time placement. I have yet to figure out how the standard of essay writing required for my diploma will compare to that of my degree, as I haven’t had any results back yet…will let you know next friday!
February 22, 2008 at 4:15 pm
Mandy Lifeboats Adrift
Thanks for response Z.
I could write about questioning minds being questioning without the need for degrees but is clear that your degree (doing it) helped you focus..certainly doing that dissitation (well I assume, I don’t know). Getting me to sit still in a class or lecture room for more than 15 minutes would be the biggest achievement of any tutor. Let alone being disciplined to do a dissitation, although I bet it was interesting. I lke research but need mine in bite size pieces. Like Mars fun size actually.
I hope the degree helps you loads more. Not just in regards to career progression and I hope it continues to help your patients too.
Meanwhile, sifting back through the Anne Summer’s catalogue…why has nobody mentioned buzzy things here?
External enquiring minds (even bonkers ones like mine) need to know!!!!!
February 22, 2008 at 6:53 pm
zarathustra
Hi Cellar Door and OFMN
With regards to nursing becoming all-degree, I have no objections, but hope they will sort out the funding.
I agree. I think all-degree nurse training will happen eventually (in fact, in Wales it already has), but they will need to sort out the bursary system for that to happen so students aren’t financially penalised.
As for how such a measure would affect those who might otherwise have gone down the diploma route, I asked that question to a nursing lecturer recently. His response was, “To be honest, the overwhelming majority of my students doing diplomas submit work that would pass at degree level. As for those that don’t…well, let’s just say they’re not likely to be a huge loss to the profession.” Since OFMN and cellar_door both passed regular degrees prior to undertaking nursing diplomas, I think it’s safe to say that if they went down the nursing degree route they would pass that too.
February 22, 2008 at 8:00 pm
cellar_door
Hi Zarathustra,
Unfortunately I know one or two nurses (certainly a tiny minority) who seem to have taken a strange pride in barely even passing the diploma. Regrettably, they also seem to lack the other non-academic skills crucial to nursing, such as empathy and common sense… I haven’t a clue how they passed, and think an all-degree course would have ‘weeded them out’.
What worries me is that I also know a huge number of really excellent nurses for whom the academic stuff is more of a challenge, and I feel the loss of such people would mean a great loss to the profession.
February 22, 2008 at 8:23 pm
zarathustra
Indeed, Cellar Door
I’m reminded of one student who was in my class who seemed to bounce through multiple resits. Last I heard she was still resitting certain modules. Given that she seemed just as rubbish out on placement as she was at writing essays, I wasn’t so much left thinking “there goes a potentially excellent nurse who just can’t write essays” as “for christ’s sake, if you can’t handle being a student nurse, how on earth do you think you’re going to hack being a staff nurse?”
Despite what the Daily Mail readers may believe, having poor organisational skills, worse writing skills and generally being as thick as pigshit does not make for a good nurse.
I’ll make one exception to the “rubbish students make for rubbish nurses” rule. There was one guy in my class who really struggled and just scraped through with a diploma, but in his case it was discovered just as he was qualifying that he was dyslexic. Obviously, if this had been identified at the beginning of the course rather than at the end, he wouldn’t have had nearly as much problems.
February 23, 2008 at 12:20 am
Mr Ian
CD his it on the head for me.
“What worries me is that I also know a huge number of really excellent nurses for whom the academic stuff is more of a challenge, and I feel the loss of such people would mean a great loss to the profession.”
I was ambivalent about the onset of P2K training when it happened and even tho I got taken in with the tidal sweep of ‘old’ nurses sying how crap uni ones were because they had no practical skills, I still consider objectively that there was a major deficit in training at that time. As for now I can’t comment as I’m not around to see but am sure the uni and the placements have all adapted to optimise the training.
However, and this is similar to a current debate in parts of Oz where they are only seeking to employ HCWs with some NVQ type paperwork: What happens to all those potentially fantastic nurses or nurses aides who just cannot or don’t want to do the academia? We used to call them ENs I guess, whether Dip HE is the new EN I don’t know; but there has to be a place in MH for those who excel at personal and interpersonal skills but lack the ability or drive to write 10,000 words about it.
My training, as above, really only required one research critique and state finals - the rest was hands on 3 - 6 month placements and ongoing reports. I suppose if I did that now - I might get an NVQ III or something - but quite clearly I am able to perform as an RMN - so why did they throw out the baby with the bathwater?
Kinda stupid idea too, considering the predicted world shortage, to then reduce the entry options into nursing.
February 23, 2008 at 8:57 am
zarathustra
What happens to all those potentially fantastic nurses or nurses aides who just cannot or don’t want to do the academia? We used to call them ENs I guess
I think there’s probably a strong case for bringing back the EN qualification in some form or another. This may well be something that could be a good subject for a whole other post in its entirety. Gimme a day or two to marshall my thoughts and I’ll do a post about HCAs vs ENs.
February 23, 2008 at 9:30 am
beakie
“What worries me is that I also know a huge number of really excellent nurses for whom the academic stuff is more of a challenge, and I feel the loss of such people would mean a great loss to the profession.”
I don’t, particularly. I don’t know anyone to whom this applies, to be honest. Good nursing requires thoughtful, intelligent people. I know that intelligence isn’t always best measured in terms of academic ability, but having said that, I would suspect the average diploma level essay wouldn’t be beyond the kind of person I’m thinking of. For those who it is, well, I think they’d probably be better employed in a less challenging post.
What happens to all those potentially fantastic nurses or nurses aides who just cannot or don’t want to do the academia?
They stay as support workers, simple as. Personally, I think the nursing shortage is not best cured by widening the entry gate so much that any old dullard with a pulse can qualify.
What needs to happen is a re-evaluation of what nurses do, and a proper look at the workforce needed, and what we need them for. Do we really need so many nurses? Or is there some other way we can meet the needs of patients?
I would suspect that we will see, more and more, the rise of people like the students on a foundation degree I run - not professionally aligned, but receiving an education to enable them to practice effectively in a very focussed way. These students specialise in mental health practice from day one, the foundation degree takes two years, it’s work-based learning and it’s a qualification at the same level as NVQ 4, just a smidge below a diploma. Cheaper, leaner, more flexible - they’re the future.
February 23, 2008 at 11:16 am
Mandy Lifeboats Adrift
Diversity in biscuits….Ha Ha!
February 23, 2008 at 11:32 am
zarathustra
Beakie
Given that I was thinking of doing a post about HCAs and the levels of training they receive/should receive, perhaps you might be better qualified to do a post about this particular topic?
February 23, 2008 at 12:40 pm
Mr Ian
I second that Z.
There’s some moves afoot in Chez Tropics akin to what you’re saying beakie and I agree with your post to a large degree (no pun intended - but laugh if you feel inclined to do so).
I think the anomaly for me is in how the hierarchy are applying it - in usual fashion - lets talk lots about it and meanwhile… we’re not waving; we’re drowning.
February 23, 2008 at 1:50 pm
beakie
z - good idea, I’ll cobble something together once this week is out - busier than a fox in a hen house. I’ve developed quite a passion about the possibilities of foundation degrees and the like in liberating HCAs from being the folders of sheets and the collectors of TTOs.
February 23, 2008 at 1:51 pm
beakie
Mr Ian - I hope your biccies are better than your puns. Where are the TimTams you PROMISED us?
February 23, 2008 at 2:30 pm
cellar_door
Beakie - I think it’s a great idea to have something between a HCA and a registered nurse. My partner is an excellent HCA and I think would make a good nurse in the more traditional description of the role…i.e. pre-soul destroying paperwork. However, he can’t face the thought of struggling with essays for three years and hates the documentation side of it all, therefore its pretty much the end of the line for him career wise.
Of course, my only concern is purely selfish…fewer jobs for nurses…but hopefully if the foundation degree becomes popular there will be fewer nurses to compete for them…
February 24, 2008 at 1:46 pm
Mr Ian
beakie - the Tim Tams - i cannot lie.
Shrink stole them whilst supposedly on a BMP (Biccie Management Plan)
February 24, 2008 at 3:12 pm
beakie
cellar-door - check out your local HEI for foundation degrees. Your old man might strike lucky!
Mr Ian - tsk! Did your nurse training teach you NOTHING? You have to watch those bloody doctors every step of the way when biscuits are around.
February 24, 2008 at 11:51 pm
TheShrink
“Shrink stole them whilst supposedly on a BMP (Biccie Management Plan)”
Well, I need to have something to tide me through generating management plans, biccies are particularly helpful at focussing the mind on BMPs.
Awfully complicated things, BMPs :
Band 6 nurse undertaking Sainsburys Risk Assessment on an in-patient unit : allocate them 2 digestive biscuits, (but to have 3 if HAD/BDI/MMSE/NPI and Bristol ADL also done)
Band 7 nurse undertaking Sainsburys Risk Assessment on a liaison ward : allocate them 2 Jammy Dodger biscuits, (but to have 1 if ward has already collated all information and patient is known to CMHT)
Junior doctor : allocate 1 chocolate digestive as they’re now too inexperienced to contribute to liaison assessments and the like that SHOs traditionally have done. Allocate 4 chocolate digestives if they are ST4 or higher since they can then do lots of work.
HCA : allocate 2 chocolate digestives and 2 rich tea for hands on patient care, double if working on PICU or a dementia ward
Band 5 nurse or OT, 2 rich tea biscuits and 2 Nice biscuits, halve if working in our lithium clinic (where nothing, nothing ever gets done).
February 25, 2008 at 8:00 am
Mr Ian
Hang on…
Band 7 nurse…(but to have 1 [Jammy Dodger] if ward has already collated all information and patient is known to CMHT)
So they essentially are given 1 Jammy Dodger for doing nothing. ok, I can live with that…. but then….
Junior doctor : allocate 1 chocolate digestive as they’re now too inexperienced to contribute to liaison assessments
A junior doctor doing nothing gets a CHOCOLATE digestive
Someone call the union… We need a ballot… is this discrimination in or against our favour?
February 25, 2008 at 10:26 pm
OFMN
If we have something between a HCA and RN.. isn’t that like a State Qualified Nurse of olden days, or am I historically lacking?
February 26, 2008 at 3:25 am
Mr Ian
State Enrolled Nurse was the term. They still do them in various ways in various parts; USa has LPN; Oz has EN’s