Dirty scrounging benefit scum

There’s a world of difference between encouraging and helping people with mental health problems back into work (A Good Thing, if you ask me) and cutting off benefits to force them back into work (A Bad Thing, in my opinion).

I think MIND or one of the other patient organisations should also become involved in this. Service users ( what a word) could form a big pressure group to get some change.

We need to be careful here. It is virtually impossible for a government, of any persuasion, to implement a policy which will not, in someway, be detrimental to someone. Unfortunately, benefit fraud in this country is a huge, and growing, problem. Frank Field ( one of the few socialists I admire ) and others were flagging this up years ago. The government ignored them. Now they`re rapidly running out of money they`re accepting the issue has to be addressed.

I only hope that when the dirty scrounging scum are weeded out there will be a little more left in the pot for our correspondent.

while it is almost certainly much less than this person had previously been receiving on IB, if an appeal against the refusal of IB is made then they should autmatically continue to receive income Support paid at a reduced rate up until the date of teh appeal tribunal. I hope they are at least getting that - although i know that doesn’t make it ok. the current system for mental health assessments for IB is appalling, the new one isn’t any better, just different. representation at tribunals can be really important, please if you are daced with a situation like this then please contact an advice agency or legal aid welfare benefits solicitor http://www.clsdirect.org.uk/en.....search.jsp for advice and represntation.

Dirty Scrounging Benefit Scum….I am flattered.

The last time I was admitted to hospital, there was a delay in getting my incapacity benefit. It took seven weeks to sort out. The reason for non-payment? Two reasons. Firstly, the form given me by the ward clerk wasn’t properly stamped by the DWP. (So why distribute forms without stamping them?) Secondly, I didn’t go into the benefits office on the first day of my claim. I pointed out that I was in hospital and didn’t think my psychiatrist would have been too pleased if I’d attempted to leave in order to sign on. Eventually it was sorted.

It doesn`t apply to men so much, you get a better feel for it when you`ve worked in female services. It applies way beyond the world of psychiatry. Those who have had the toughest times and suffered the most are often the most compassionate. They care deeply about their fellow man and are prepared to become militant if they feel the vulnerable are threatened. That`s magnificent but the standpoint lacks a bit of objectivity

( As a side note the type of person I am talking about will often extend their compassion to animals. That`s nice but don`t take it as far as vegetarianism. A balanced diet including the odd hog roast and liver dinner will be better for you )

The service user element on this site will obviously be more than genuine. They want to get a feel for mental health professionals, slap us down when we`re talking nonsense, give us guidance, gain a greater perspective and maybe learn a thing or two. I also think some of you may be a bit too inclined to give everyone on benefits the benefit ( is that a pun ? ) of the doubt. I`m sorry, I`m afraid benefit “scum” do exist. In good numbers.

The benefits “manipulator” may have a quick scan but they won`t contribute on Mental Nurse. You`re unlikely to see them in hospital or at self help groups. Many of them will have something from their GP saying they`re stressed. A lot of them will have problems secondary to their lifestyle choice of drug misuse. Don`t get me wrong I`m not saying these people don`t need a bit of support. They just shouldn`t be entitled to long term state subsidy.

It`s not just DLA and IB, the whole benefits system needs reform. ( I think the reform should probably start elsewhere ). Desperately. It`s nothing to do with David Cameron`s ideas ( I hadn`t realised he`d ever had one ). Welfare reform is an ineviability. It won`t be pleasant. There will be injustices and casualties along the way. But the consequences of not doing it would be catastrophic. And as I`ve said before, hopefully, when we emerge at the other end the genuine will get a better deal

“Injustices and casualties along the way”? Well, better 99 innocents hanged than one guilty go free.

Not sure what to say to that, cAsAcambs. I`m not going to bullshit you. I`m way right of centre. If I was prime minister I`d be after benefit cheats with missionary zeal. But I`m not prime minister ( nor am I likely to be ) and we have some type of left wing government. Any government can only distribute what it collects in taxes. At the moment we`re all wondering why our petrol gauges don`t seem to move when we spend £20 at the forecourt, we`re all thinking “fuck !” when we open our utility bills and we`re all wondering where the economy is going. There isn`t much scope for further tax rises. ( Beakie will probably suggest taxing Prince Edward but I`m really not sure that`s any solution ). Simultaneously, the govenment coffers are starting to look a little threadbare.

This government has sensed a problem for a long, long time. Their heads are just emerging from the sand. They have no choice, they have to grasp this nettle. I`ve no idea how they`re going to do it but I do know that the system they introduce will not be 100% fair. No system is. So, yes, there will be injustices and casualties. To pretend otherwise is naivete. Sorry.

Well, perhaps a more humane position would be to say: We must ensure that in all circumstances the vulnerable are supported, and if this means a few scrounging, dope smoking, cheats get an easy ride - then that is the price we pay for for living in a civilised society. What would medical ethics have to say about this situation? Perhaps someone more learned than me, would like to chip in.

How about a slightly different perspective here? How much has this government spent on consultancy fees for, for example, IT schemes that never got off the ground? Filthy leaching scumgabs often wear suits and carry breifcases too.

cAsAcambs, You have a point. But it isn`t a “FEW scrounging, dope smoking cheats”. There are a hell of a lot of them. And giving people an easy ride most certainly does not make our society more civilised. This isn`t all doom and gloom. I don`t have ultimate faith in the system but I`m reasonably happy most genuine claimants are worrying unnecessarily.

Jan, I`m no paragon of virtue with regard to sticking to the theme of the post, however, this is not what we`re talking about here. Having said that I`m inordinately enthusiastic about the prospect of sweeping all the debris out of the backrooms of the public sector. I`m sick of health and safety buffoons cautioning me about sticking my fingers in electrical appliances, auditors telling me I forgot to tick a box, smoking cessation biffers harassing me when I`ve never smoked and strange people smelling of cats telling me how to team build. They should all be sacked. Immediately.

Scrounging in Cambridgeshire - Some facts: adults with GHQ12 score >4 c.60,000; Schizophrenia/Affective Psychosis c.6000; Depressive/Neurotic disorders 22,000 [min.]; ASD’s c.4000. People on Incapacity Benefit c.12,000. Wherever all these scroungers are, they’re not round here. [Source JSNA draft; jan 2008, C&P-MHT]

Afraid I don`t understand all of that and statistics, paticularly government statistics, don`t mean a great deal. The backbenches of the parliamentary Labour party are as outraged as you are but welfare reform is still coming. I`m merely the messenger.

Back in the early 90’s my hubby applied for various disablity benefits & was turned down on the basis that for one year he didn’t have enough NI contributions.The final benefit he applied for was SDA (Severe Disability Allowance).He was turned down for this after a 15 minute chat with a panel of three people consisting of a solictor,a doctor (not psych) & some other bod.It took us the best part of a day to get to the place of interview - stressful in itself.We went to appeal at a venue 30 mins up the road & fortunately there was a successful outcome.The claim was backdated & paid for a specific period.

Say what you think Z, you don`t need research data. I`m sure you`re right the DWP will wind it into the mentally ill.

However, you`re talking rubbish. If we had unimaginable oil wealth 5 scroungers for every genuine case would be wrong. Wrong is wrong. But we`re not an unimaginably wealthy country. Our oil revenue is declining, we don`t manufacture much, we`ve got a growing elderly population we have to look after ( the stoical, uncomplaining, wonderful people who saw off Hitler ) and we`ve got a couple of wars to pay for. The same Labour Party that decided we needed to go to war has let this problem slide for ten years. The number of people claiming benefits has gone through the roof.

I seem to be in grave danger of being portrayed as supporting government policy. I never have voted Labour and never will. Blame David Cameron ( and he is a tosser ) all you like but he`s not to blame for this. If you voted Labour, you have to accept your share of the responsibility.

Beakie will probably suggest taxing Prince Edward but I`m really not sure that`s any solution

He’d have to be in gainful employment for that to be worthwhile.

oldschool, let me translate the Mental Health Trust’s statistics for you, they say “You’re talking CRAP”; they also say “There are more than enough chronically and seriously mentally ill people in this county, to account for all the Incapacity Benefit Claims”. They also say “You can’t believe everything you read in the Daily Mail” and they go on to say “If you’re going to make such provocative statements, have some facts to back up your claims, which aren’t sourced from tabloid sh*t rags and conversations with your mate down the pub”.

I`m not quite that dim. When you start supporting your arguments with GHQ12>4 scores my antennae, suspicious at the best of times, start to twitch. I don`t believe any of it. I`m no expert in benefits but what about DLA. SDA has been mentioned, I`d never heard of it. The Daily Mail isn`t wholly wrong, neither are “my mates in the pub” and neither are my observations. There is widescale abuse going on and it`s in everyones interest that it`s stopped.

I too was conservative in my use of statistics - much higher numbers can easily be extracted from the statistics. The JSNA is on the Trust’s website if anyone’s bored enough to look. The unemployment rate for ASD’s is around 90% [Which includes the "High Functioning" Autistics] ref: “I Exist” Report, Rosenblatt, M. et al. [pub. NAS 2008]. Have any of you tried to get a sick note from a Cambridgeshire GP? This isn’t the Cynon Valley you know.

Just a thought regarding physical v mental illness -

one of my relatives (lets call her J) is in her 50’s, has had two hip replacements that didn’t take and requires a third. She also has damaged ligaments in her shoulder, requiring surgery, and arthritis in her wrist and knees. She is in constant pain which keeps her awake at night and needs help with various ADLs. After working all her life, she has been told by her doc she will never be able to work full time again, but she works part time as she needs the money.

Now take my other relatve (lets call her E). She is young(er), unemployed and has only held one job for about 6 months. She suffers mild to moderate depression and occasional panic attacks, but is able to attend college and go out drinking with friends several nights a week.

It took J over two years of fighting to be awarded DLA, which basically brings her income up to something approaching adequate.

E was awarded it immediatley on application.

I do wonder sometimes…

I can`t envisage ever being bored enough to read Trust statistics. Any old numbers “can easily be extracted from the statistics”. How do you think pharmaceutical companies operate.

I don`t know Cambridgeshire at all. There may be regional variations. I have heard of Liverpool G.P`s retiring early as they felt they had merely become barriers between their patients and their objectives in terms of benefits. I haven`t got any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, from the poor old Cynon Valley. I believe depression was eradicated when we won the Grand Slam though.

sorry but it would seem to me that those statistics aren’t of much help. on the face of it they appear to suggest that tehre are huge numbers of people with diagnosed chronic mental health problems who don’t get Incapacity benefit. That, I’m afraid means nothing in this context. Apart form a couple of special groups Incapacity benefit itself can only be paid to someone who has paid suficient national insurance contributions in one of the 3 previous tax years. if you haven’t you get income support on the grounds of incapcity for work instead. so many people with enduring mental health problems, who are more likely to have been in spradic, low paid, irregular employment won’t be in the IB statistics at all, they will be labelled as Income support benefit scroungers instead.

Incapacity benefit amounts to £7 billion each year, while total health expenditure is presently running at around £91 billion.

According to some commentators the current national debt exceeds the trillion mark, in other words every British households has been saddled with a debt of £70,000+ thanks to the so-called policies of successive governments.

Those genuinely entitled to benefits should be given them without being made to feel like they are a burden to the workers (in my humble opinion) - unfortunately they are not helped by a minority of scam merchants, but perhaps more importantly by unsustainable levels of public expenditure.

Hmm - you try cutting just a tiny wee bit of that expenditure and see even more complaining. Look at the whinging going on about the closure of the financially unfeasible Henderson. You can’t please all of the people all of the time, and sometimes there will be people left unhappy. C’est la vie.

I agree with OSB, the benefits bill needs to be reined in. People with genuine needs are being ripped off by scam artists as well.

Nice to have your wisdom back on site, Charge Nurse.

Beakie you`re right the whinging will be deafening but the closure of the Henderson and the like should not be the starting point. We need to address the small scale waste first. It would be amazing what impact we could have if we all learned to turn lights off.

Being seen as the militant fringe, perhaps I should not write in regards to this but not to take action (however small or large) means I accept things by default.

OldSchoolBaby wrote

” I`m afraid benefit “scum” do exist. In good numbers.”

If you know that can you enlighten those of us who don’t as to who they actually are!

Is it a case of a generic grouping (of sorts) that has been identified as scrounging scum?

And where is the evidence to show this?

I ask this because you made a statement and< I think, it needs justification.

Mandy, despite my repeated goading, oldschool refuses to get his statistics out for the lads. oldschool doesn’t do evidence based ranting.

Hi CAsAcambs

Evidence based ranting. Ha! Ha!

I will settle for nothing less than video footage of said ‘good numbers’ caught in the act of scrounging.

Scenario..

Old boy, sifting through the rubbish bin in a park.

“There I was minding my own scrounging business and I spied this bloke with a camcorder. Well, what could I do but put the half eaten burger back in the bin?”

The government massages figures ceaselessly, pharmaceutical companies tell you what they think you want to hear, psychotherapists manipulate their research to make their interventions look cutting edge and efficacious. If I may be so bold, CaSacambs, your contribution, statistics wise, was a cordial invitation right down the garden path. I don`t do evidence based ranting and I make no apologies for it.

I`m afraid I`m currently working long days. I wil reply more comprehensively when I get a minute.

Could illustrate my point in a number of ways but the drug misuse one is probably the easiest. For the last 6 months half of my ward has been occupied by those with serious drug misuse issues. Now we could debate endlessly around the chicken and egg argument of which came first. I`m more than happy to accept that some of them started misusing drugs in response to mental distress. In fact I wouldn`t entirely dismiss the argument that some street drugs may help, to a degree. However, I`m also entirely convinced that 60% of them have mental health issues entirely attributable to drug misuse. Many of them are completely asymptomatic on the odd occasion when we`re able to physically prevent them from accessing street drugs. Anyway, you get my drift.

They are all on benefits. I don`t know the precise details but some are on levels of benefit that would mean seeking employment at the minimum wage would, in economic terms, be grossly foolish.

The long term impact makes you want to weep. People with no concept of responsibility to others, family, community or society, with no capacity to work or even structure their day, who have no concept of the link between work and reward. Little things grate too. They are contemptuous of the cleaning ladies, never stop to pick up change, spurn hospital food in favour of takeaways, lie like cheap Woolworth`s watches and talk about being “paid”. They don`t want to change. The ones that do go to the specialist unit less than a mile away.

It gets worse. Some will be NFA and exceeedingly difficult to discharge. They will have been accommodated in the past but have thousands of pounds of rent arrears and massive bills for the damage they have caused. They are sectioned in a legally, morally and ethically dubious manner in a desperate attempt to curb their drug misuse. Legal representation, tribunals, Outreach intervention, PICU nursing and the like don`t come cheap. All this money is being diverted from those in more genuine need.

The contrast with older people is just staggering. People who are always fretting that they`re too much trouble and thank you effusively for everything you do.

When I was younger there was healthy competition to get a days spud-picking and earn a bit of money. I watched a news article the other day and the journalist asked young British people why they didn`t want to pick strawberries. They looked incredulous that they`d even been asked and every one dismissed the suggestion with something approaching contempt.

This is why the scroungers have to be stamped on. To get rid of the perception that you can do what you like and the government will pick you up and wipe your arse