More on Emo

Sadly there seem to be quite a few doctors who think “people skills” are something that corporate HR departments do.

WHY are so many of them like this. I mean, surgeons, I can understand, it doesn’t really matter. But psychiatrists???

(Disclaimer: pretty much every doc I have had any dealings with where I now live is just fantastic. I’ve encountered some doozies in the past in other countries and boroughs though).

So I wonder if it’s the “old guard” then? (no idea, just postulating). Is he a specialist in CAMHS though? In which case it’s his JOB to know about teenage fashions. I mean, I’ve been a goth since about 1988. Lots of other teenagers were goths at the time (I just never grew up lol). Teen fashion is not a new thing. You could ask the doc to look up the Bay City Rollers :).

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BTW, Z, may I be so bold as to shamelessly announce that I have my own blog if you’re interested - on LJ - actionreplay.livejournal.com. The publicly-accessible entries of any interest are all recent, otherwise everything except lolcats and the like is friends-only. Had the LJ since 2004…

It’s not a patch on this one mind you…

I’d not wish for a good third of Consultant Psychiatrist colleagues to treat my friends or family. Many can be shamefully woeful.

And me, charm personified, Zarathustra? Why, yes of course. Folks are wont to cast themselves to my feet and bask in wondrous joy

And lo the sun did verily shine out of his arse

Dr Cretin sounds like a real charmer. It’s really quite sad that he’d probably feel quite happy to use his status as a consultant to justify his ignorance about young ‘uns.

oh well, if in doubt then just pump them full of SSRI! That’s never done anyone any harm! [/sarcastic comment]

Z I am sure the consultant is masquerading as my Bastard Shrink.Or is related to him or trained at same time.

I keep saying it, the good Lord doesn`t give you everything. If you have the brains to sail through medical school and bucketloads of charisma, you`ll be blighted with erectile dysfunction.

Personally, I don`t see why “Dr. Cretin” should be an expert in youth culture. You can argue, quite legitimately, that he should have a litle more awareness but that`s it. It does no harm for a few figures of authority and role models to be perceived as straight laced. Of course, he does deserve flogging for prescribing SSRI`s so readily.

Emoism may not be the sole cause of low mood and self harm but there is someting of the melancholy about it and I`ve no doubt, whatsoever, that there are other interests out there which would have a more positive impact on Gerard. As for stupid fringes and black polished nails, if you introduce that to a school with minimal discipline then I can`t believe for one second that anyone is even faintly surprised that the poor lad ends up with his head down the bog.

Hang on. I`m in danger of becoming Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells here but this kid is 15. You`re opposition to his cannabis misuse is weak to say the least. You`re sympathising with his inability to “pace himself” with alcohol and you`re almost hoping that his “cultural” choices get him “laid”.

You sprinted to the moral high ground when Crippen speculated about Brown`s mental state. The moral high ground seems vacant here and any legal perspective is, strangely, disregarded.

@OSB: My husband and I have just now had the misfortune of being subjected to a tirade of abuse from a group of about 5 neds (or “chavs” as you call them Doon Sooth), mainly, it seems, as we were walking past them on the way back to our flat from Tescos.

I was very worried for a minute as it looked like they were forming up for a fight/kicking, and they were keen to check if we had any additiona “mates” behind us (standard thug tactics: form up to surround your target, pick a fight in a small group and once it starts have all your mates come from a short way back and pile in).

That didn’t happen, thankfully. Wisely, we ignored them and said nothing, but I was livid.

In case you’re wondering, we’re both adults (30s and 40s respectively), dressed in jeans and tshirt - do you get dressed up to go to tesco? - and this is not a rough area by any means. They also ripped down a load of planning notices and the like.

I have on various occasions seen and heard of similar things all over Scotland and indeed the rest of the UK.

Not once, ever, have I heard of anyone being set upon or verbally abused by a pack of “goths” or “emos”.

I take it these are the same sorts of lads (about age 15) who are perpetrating serious bodily harm on the emo lad on a regular basis - shoving someone’s head down a toilet is criminal behaviour and bodily harm, not bullying - “bullying” is being called names and not invited to the popular boy’s birthday party.

OSB is right in that this young lad’s school has a discipline problem. The problem is not whatever the kids are wearing, it’s that behaviour like the above is tolerated by the school, is obviously tolerated by the brats’ parents, and it seems society at large. How is he expected to learn anything if he has to worry about being violently assaulted in the corridors?

Instead of having a go at the lad for wearing eyeliner, how about asking why his classmates are allowed to get away with violent crimes on a daily basis? The school can worry about uniforms and dress code AFTER they have sorted out their serious violence problem.

I know this may seem emotive but bear in mind the incident described above only just happened. It won’t only be kids who dress differently who will get shafted if this sort of crap is allowed to continue all over the country. They learn to pick on other kids first, then they look for bigger fish as it seems they can do what they like.

OSB;
Emoism may not be the sole cause of low mood and self harm but there is someting of the melancholy about it and I`ve no doubt, whatsoever, that there are other interests out there which would have a more positive impact on Gerard

I was a ‘hippygoth’ (as the local chavs used to shout across the street - no, I don’t know either) and although I would agree that a lot of alternative music does appear melancholy, I would argue that listening to music you like and that speaks to your own experiences is actually pretty uplifting. It’s reassuring to know that you are not the only one that feels how you do…and if I was forced to listen to something more ‘positive’ (dance music anybody?) I really would be suicidal. It wasn’t listening to this music that affected my thoughts and feelings, rather it was these feelings that made me seek out music that I could relate to.

Also, our school had a strict uniform that I adhered to, and I was still bullied because I was ‘different’. They can just tell…possibly the lack of an orange tan and an ability to end a sentance without using the word ‘innit’.

DeeDee;
Not once, ever, have I heard of anyone being set upon or verbally abused by a pack of “goths” or “emos”

We are a peaceful people :0)

Instead of having a go at the lad for wearing eyeliner, how about asking why his classmates are allowed to get away with violent crimes on a daily basis? The school can worry about uniforms and dress code AFTER they have sorted out their serious violence problem

Exactly.

Z, You`re missing my point. I was 15 once, intent on pumping any young lady bovine enough to let me anywhere near and drinking as much as I could before my legs went ( I didn`t seek out cannabis and it wasn`t widely available ). I was mostly frustrated as adulthood and authority frowned upon such things. Sermonising won`t help but you have to send out a strong message. We seem to have the highest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe, STD`s are rampaging through young people, hepatic failure is common in 20 somethings and a ridiculous percentage of the population are misusing drugs. Ambivalence won`t do.

DeeDee, I sympathise with your story but I`ve no clue as to why you`re telling me. I`ve been a lone voice on MentalNurse advocating the restoration of school discipline and corporal punishment, rigid adherence to school uniform and an hours PT in the morning for the disruptive. I would happily impose some army discipline on your neds and those that bullied Gerard.

Cellar Door, Hippygothing may have worked for you but I`m still not convinced that you couldn`t have been doing something more conventional and constructive.

@OSB> You seemed to be stating that the main problem was Gerard’s appearance.

Generally, I dislike it, when a kid is the victim of repeated violent crime in the schoolyard, that the chorus is often to tell the victim off for not fitting in. Suggestions as to ways he could change his appearance to be less of a target are neither here nor there - what needs to be done is for the school to get serious about preventing the violence.

However, if the same thugs turn their attention to the general public the same indifference doesn’t hold. Were that group of neds to have actually attacked me and my husband, it’d have been in the local paper no doubt. Why is a 15 year old going to his place of work or study different from me and my husband and why would he not also be entitled to the protection of the law?

And BTW, I am a “hippygoth”. As regards doing things more conventional and constructive, well… let’s see… I spent most of my time after school doing homework and revising, attending cross-country training, classical and traditional music practice, and farm and household chores. Oh, and chatting to my friends on the phone, and going to the cinema about once a month. Perhaps I should have refrained from such subversive activities. (You’ll notice: No booze. No drugs. No ciggarettes).

You need to step away from the clothing and appearance as somehow being a problem in and of itself - I see things like drink, drugs and violence as problems. Teenagers wearing ridiculous get-ups, no so much.

OSB;
Hippygothing may have worked for you but I`m still not convinced that you couldn`t have been doing something more conventional and constructive

Such as? I got (very) good grades, read a ridiculous amount of books, saw friends, did lots of housework… Which of these are not conventional or constructive? Fair enough, I wasn’t particularly extroverted but then some people aren’t - is this a bad thing? And do I deserve to be spat on in the street, as happened on numerous occasions? I think I’ve managed to grow into a fairly well balanced individual despite the ‘hippygothing’. Or maybe thats just the voices talking…

Once you`ve got used to my right wing ranting you won`t draw such mistaken inferences DeeDee. I was pointing out that kids can, and will, be cruel. You can`t happily combine poor school discipline and being different. Woolly minded liberals appear surprised by this. I`m much more pro uniform than I am anti hippygoth attire. Kids dressed uniformally have less to distract them and will, in consequence, focus more readily on their studies. After an hours PT that is.

Beyond school hours I don`t perceive hippygothing to be any huge problem in itself. However, I`m not sure it`s the optimum way ahead if you`re low in mood.

OSB;

I agree that uniforms are important in schools. But some people will be different even in a uniform. It can be the way they talk, the things they say, the people they talk to, the fact that they do their homework…etc.

And I think if you are low in mood, the last thing you want to be told is that you can’t listen to your favourite music. I found it very therapeutic. I don’t think the Spice Girls would have had the same effect.

@OSB> You can`t happily combine poor school discipline and being different. Woolly minded liberals appear surprised by this.

Are you sure you didn’t mean “good school discipline”?

I don’t have a problem with a strict uniform where makeup, excessive jewelery and the like are not allowed. I’m not allowed to show up to work in the sort of outfit I wear to concerts, after all. Provided enforcement is well, uniform, and rampant violence isn’t being ignored at the same time, no problems there.

My school incidentally had a uniform and didn’t have a rampant violence problem.

The stories I’ve heard from friends at the crap that went on in some of their schools in England are eye-opening (please note, I was not educated in the UK). In particular, stories like violence to the level of broken bones and being pushed down stairs, but nothing being done about it, and if they complained, they got a telling off about their appearance. (And these went on to be Oxbridge students, so it’s not that they were lazy tossers the teachers had no time for). See what I mean?

The main problem if someone is being assaulted is to stop the assaults - then if they want to bring in uniforms for everyone, you won’t see me complaining.

However, as an adult, I never, ever, EVER wear anything navy.

I think an hour of PT a day for everyone would be fun actually. But then, I used to do cross-country, and still do sporty stuff now, so maybe I’m the only one that would be enthusiastic about it. American schools do have 1 hour of PE every day as standard.

Ok Z, OSB and I will stop fighting, put away the rulers and hockey sticks and pay attention in class in future .

Oh don`t worry I`m not going to stop arguing. We needed to get back on track though.

DeeDee, I saw your assertions that thuggery and bullying are rife and unacceptable therefore peaceful pastimes such as hippygothing should be beyond criticism to be little more than social comment. What`s more, I doubt very much that if we were in the judiciary you would be more robust than me in sentencing those who launch vicious, unprovoked attacks on folk going to Tesco. In fact, I would fine you too for having a farming background and still using a major supermarket !!

The real debate here is to whether hippygothing, which may or may not have a passing fascination with death, induce people to spend inordinate amounts of time in front of a computer screen, listen to melancholic music and dress in dark clothing is:

a) in any way worthwhile
b) beneficial to young people who may be prone or predisposed to low mood.

What the hell was wrong with chess club ???

@OSB> I’ll try and keep this short as right now I’m busy hosting a discussion over on my livejournal on the vitally important topic of whether or not the UK should bother entering the Eurovision next year.

I think you’re reading too much into the emo/goth/whatever “thing”.

Being an emo/goth isn’t something that takes up time that could otherwise be devoted to playing chess. I mean, it’s like “being a Beatles fan” or supporting Leeds United. Let’s see it involves…

- Listening to music. Which may have unhappy lyrics. I suggest giving the lyrics to Elvis’s Heartbreak Hotel a good listen (great song too might I add) - this is not new. Teenagers have been listening to sad music for decades.

- Wearing ridiculous outfits when going out, whether that is to chess club, youth club, Leeds United game or mainlining crack cocaine under a bridge etc. All teenagers do this. The emos/goths wear black silly outfits. The neds have their tracksuits - I find this very silly, as I own several track suits, but they are for exercising in, not going out with my mates. I wouldn’t have been seen dead in a tracksuit going out in my teens or early 20s and in the latter case most pubs in town wouldn’t have let me in in that state anyway.

That’s it. Nothing different from the usual teenage stuff, except that the clothes stand out a bit more. It’s not a lifestyle, club or secret society. It’s a fashion trend and a set of musical tastes. That’s it. Give it two years, it’ll be something else.

Now, booze, drugs, sex, smoking, spending too much time online and not getting enough exercise or socialising: these are all problems. They aren’t related to what the perpetrator is wearing at the time (although if you’re in full cold weather kit on a hillwalking trip in the Highlands the booze and sex could be tricky).

Re Tescos: we’re working on this one. We get the meat and fish from local shops now. The veg is harder as I’m not here a lot of the time during the week so getting a box of veg means half of them go off.