A Prime time

I once tried dieting by square rooting myself - but I found it didn’t work because I was multiplying by Pie.

WOW - thanks for this post E, that was really enjoyable reading! Mathematics is strange and beautiful and I wish I’d listened more at school.

Well, E, as someone who has told you that some of your academic mental health posts have been boring, may I be the first to congratulate you on this one. It is incredibly, incredibly difficult to explain things like number theory to layperson thickos like me. In fact, it`s a gift. Even the geeks of the scientific community had to concede that Bryson`s Brief History of Nearly Everything was masterful.

As usual though I`m looking from a political perspective. I recently had a ding dong with Beakie over grammar schools. I`m hoping this post will give him an apreciation of how wrong he was. Mankind, and I`m talking globally here, is demonstrating no inclination or ability to sort out its problems in a peaceful manner. Science and maths have the potential to produce all kinds of solutions. As per usual our government are worse than clueless and are shepherding our talented young people into a further education of soft science, media studies and other crap. Our secondary schools are dumbed down and ill disciplined to the extent that I doubt that many school leavers have any idea what number theory is never mind any enthusiasm for studying it.

Ted for Education Secretary, that`s what I say.

Reposting your point there OSB … where exactly has the enlightenment of our talented young people taken us so far tho?

I’m all for dumbing down - and slowing down - the erosion of our species by the advancement of science.

The more we seek to control for ourselves - the more we destroy for ourselves.

Mr Ian, Have you developed some obscure tropical disease ?. You are doing my head in. I agree with a lot of what you say then your thinking gets all muddled and you lose me.

I agree we should be slowing down. The advancement of science can be a double edged sword. Unfortunately there are 6,000,000,000 of us on the planet and we have to deal with it. I don`t want to eat GM crops or cloned cows, I`m extremely uncomfortable with all this embryology research. I do my best to have a minimal impact on the planet. I cycle, I grow my own veg, I`m intent on keeping chickens, I recycle everything I can, I support the local farm shops and I prefer a bunk barn in Scotland to a foreign holiday. Slowing down I will accept.

As for dumbing down. NO, NO, NO. Many scientific advances have the potential to improve our lot. Cleaner nuclear energy, hydrogen fuel cells, more compact / lighter / less toxic battery systems. British scientists and engineers used to lead the way. Now all our graduates seem to be “lovin` it” in McDonalds. That`s not good enough.

Now hide the coffee supply and get some sleep.

ah - mathematicians do tend to be among the mystical and reverent, it seems to go with the territory. Bizarrely enough I once studied maths at degree level, and in one of my textbooks there was (something like) this sentence:

“At this juncture we invite the reader to pause in awe and wonderment at the deep beauty of the theorems here revealed.”

Fantastic stuff. (Reflecting back, I always had more a knack for the complex imaginary infinities stuff than the so-called “real analysis” -that seems just a little bit too appropriate now.)

I doubt that many school leavers have any idea what number theory is never mind any enthusiasm for studying it.

I left school in 1979, and this exactly describes me at the time. We didn’t do number theory at school then, and neither did you.

My AutisticSpectrumDisorder-o-meter has just gone off-scale and exploded. Anyone else?

I`m not sure it`s the ASD-o-metre inside me that`s about to explode but something is. Give me strength !!!!

Beakie, I finished school in `81, aged 15 ( I was the youngest in the class ). I do have a C grade in maths O level. That`s because I selected 50% of the questions that I thought I could do and did them and redid them to give me the best chance of getting it right. The other 50% of the paper I disregarded. I scraped through.

Of course I didn`t do number theory. That was fortunate, it`s beyond me. HOWEVER, YOU MUPPET, there were a number in the class who could have grasped it. This is my whole bloody point. Why should bright students be held back by those who dont have the ability ( ME ) and those who have little interest in anything other than leaving school and joining the army ( ME ). Even in 79 - 81 the comprehensive system was dragging standards down. It`s a whole lot worse now. I recently saw a maths test for those seeking entry to university to study maths. I reckon I could have made a decent fist of it. How bloody worrying is that ?.

You just can`t get past your petty class war, political envy viewpoint. You`d rather Cambridge shut than admit Princess Beatrice. You`d rather us all wallow in the shit than the bright get their opportunity. Wake up, for fuck`s sake. There is such a thing as numbers theory and it`s well worth studying. The 11 plus was open to all, it should be open to all. There`s no inequality in that. Giving the bright kids a chance is the right thing to do, for them, for those of us who haven`t got those academic gifts and for this country, which at the moment has barely any chance of competing academically on the global stage.

Err, oh G-d, don’t want to get involved, but I just can’t help it… My school career started of with 5 years at a special school, 2 months at mainstream [disaster], and then via a child guidance clinic IQ test and an assisted places scheme place, to NoNonsense English Prep school where the main qualification for teaching was being a retired army officer. School days lasted from 9am till 7pm and Saturdays till 5pm. We learnt all sorts over and above the CE curriculum…

Major Almond-Jones taught us how to make gunpowder and then small cannons and guns [I'm not joking]. Major Rees taught us geography through telling us about places and ‘girls’ he’d known in the war. ‘Mr’ Gadsby (Intelligence), taught us the war poets with alarming engagement. We did Animal Farm at 10 and so learned modern history. German speaking behind the lines johnny, headmaster Rex Hackett, taught us the importance of morality through the Old Testiment…I could go on… [And there was rugby 6 days a week in winter]… It was hell on earth, but by God it was an education…

Opps, forgot to make my point. What would’ve happened to me if I’d stayed in the 1970’s Marxist state special education system? I would’ve remained a council estate ‘mong’ and ’slow’ boy, which is what I was before I went there. That’s how I achieved some small measure of independance and confidence and became the Telegraph reading, wild-life slaughtering loony, I am today.

Explosives, cannons, guns and rugby six days a week. Schooling heaven, Socrates. Most kids on this council estate are destined for NEETdom or prison. Never mind, Beakie`s happy.

<blahblah You just can`t get past your petty class war, political envy viewpoint. You`d rather Cambridge shut than admit Princess Beatrice. yadda yadda

Not at all. I’d rather Princess Beatrice took her chances with all the other entrants, should she want a place. But you and I both know she wouldn’t have to.

Mmmm, heaven’s not quite the word I’d use… but what’s achieved in life without effort? I only spent a few years there before puberty hit [puberty+autism=trouble], but it had a profound effect on me. BTW, there was NO corporal punishment! There was wearing pyjamas all day; having to eat meals with the juniors; punishmemt walks and so on. It was a ‘liberal’ establishment in that peculiar British use of the word - we were at liberty to study modern as well ancient languages, arts AND crafts and play sports 6 days a week…

You have a preference for “taking your chances with all the other entrants” to gain entrance to an educational establishment ???. How, exactly, does that differ from the 11 plus.

I could throttle you sometimes, Beakie. You`re completely oblivious to the manoevurings parents get up to in order to get their children into the few half decent schools left. Privelige can be bought, that`s always been the way and it always will be. If you think that`s exclusive to the Royal Family and aristocracy, you`re sadly mistaken. You style yourself as some sort of champion of the interests of working class children. I doubt very much you ever set foot in a council estate. The kids around here have no chance of going to a decent school. Why deny them an opportunity, on merit, to have a decent education ?

You have a preference for “taking your chances with all the other entrants” to gain entrance to an educational establishment ???. How, exactly, does that differ from the 11 plus.

We are talking about university entrance, post-compulsory education. Why are you bringing in the 11-plus, which refers to an outmoded way of deciding whether kids went to grammar schools or secondary moderns, neither of which exist any more.

You`re completely oblivious to the manoevurings parents get up to in order to get their children into the few half decent schools left

Well, no I’m not, but again, I have absolutely no idea why you are suddenly bringing this up.

I doubt very much you ever set foot in a council estate.

Oh dear - you see, this is where you make yourself look a tit, when you indulge your rather silly fantasies about me. As my dad lives on a council estate, I am regularly to be found there. It’s the council estate I grew up on. My sister also lives on a council estate, as do all those of her children who have left home.

I really do not know what you are banging on about here. You are usually the one boring on about my “class war” attitude for wanting working class people to have access to decent education, so why have you suddenly decided I am a champion of privilege? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Beakie, You recently complained that your students weren`t grasping care planning. I could be wrong but you seemed to intimate they weren`t the best educated. Apart from that, I don`t recall you making any pronouncements on what you think of the current education system. I don`t recall you saying you want a decent education for working class kids. If you do you seem devoid of ideas for how to achieve it. It appears to me that you would accept any old crap as long as Princess Beatrice and the odd stockbroker couldn`t abuse it.

I`ve made my views clear. I think it`s a shambles. Obviously, I can`t prove it but there is no doubt, whatsoever, in my mind that no children from this estate will get a decent education. I`m not just appalled by that, it makes me feel sick.

I am a realist. If I was made Education Secretary tomorrow, the current economic climate wouldn`t allow me a budget to re-introduce grammar schools. I`d have to content myself with emancipating teachers from red tape and, more importantly, restoring school discipline.

Obviously, I don`t have first hand experience of grammar schools but the theory of it makes sense to me. In fact, in these times of fierce international competition it strikes as more important than ever that the maximum is extracted from our brightest kids. I do know, full well, how the education of brighter kids can be impaired by the disruptive. I was that disruptive child. I owe a few of my contemporaries an apology.

No system is perfect and I`

Pressed the wrong button. No system is perfect and I`m happy to concede that a grammar school type system isn`t perfect either. I don`t know how many children from my local primary would pass the 11 plus but the simple fact is that if it was a mere 1% it would be 1% better than the current system. 1 or 2 kids coming out of school at the age of 18 possibly with a basic understanding of number theory. That would be a turn up for the books around here.

So come on Beakie, are you content with the current education system and if you`re not what are you going to do about it ?

Under the old tripartite education system you wax nostalgic about, disadvantage was even more firmly entrenched than it is now. I would agree with you that what ails the current education system is too much political interference. Instead of education policy being informed by educational research, it is informed by the never-satisfied demands of employers and the government’s interpretation of the expectations of the electorate. Like health, education has had to endure initiative after initiative, reform after reform, change upon change producing nothing much in the way of improvement.

The answer to this is not to revive some antediluvian system that saw young working class women directed towards the typing pool while the son of the local JP was steered towards the grammar school, hothousing and Oxbridge.

I would have thought it was implicit in everything I’ve said about higher education that I want equality of opportunity for everyone. The best people to decide how this should be achieved are educationalists. However, I hold out little hope that they will be listened to any more than mental health nurses were consulted by ol’ Ma Beasley before she spewed out her latest “review” of mental health nursing.

My students not grasping care planning is not, I think, an artefact of their previous education but a result of poor mentoring in the clinical area.

Beakie, Typing pools are gone. Why can`t you get past stockbrokers, J.P`s and Prince Edward. Perhaps you should seek out John Prescott`s website, he`ll lap up your argument. Oxbridge, and any grammar school for that matter, wouldn`t want, and couldn`t carry, the duffer offspring of every bigwig. Whether you like it or not the Queen, Bill Gates and the Sultan of Brunei will get their kids educated where they please. Get over it. There is only one way to achieve the fairness you crave and that is to drag everything down to its lowest common denominator. This seems, to me, to be a primary objective of the current government. I trust you are satisfied with their progress.

Beakie, Typing pools are gone.

I was talking historically.

Why can`t you get past stockbrokers, J.P`s and Prince Edward.

Those are what we call “examples”

Perhaps you should seek out John Prescott`s website, he`ll lap up your argument. Oxbridge, and any grammar school for that matter, wouldn`t want, and couldn`t carry, the duffer offspring of every bigwig.

HAHHAHAHA

Whether you like it or not the Queen, Bill Gates and the Sultan of Brunei will get their kids educated where they please. Get over it.

I’m over it. But you seem to have a major problem with the idea that privilege reproduces itself down the generations.

There is only one way to achieve the fairness you crave and that is to drag everything down to its lowest common denominator.

Absolute rubbish. Nowhere have I said that everyone should go to Oxbridge, nowhere have I said they shouldn’t maintain standards. nowhere have I indicated that everything should be flattened out to a plateau of mediocrity. This is the most infuriating aspect of debating with you. Instead of dealing with people’s actual expressed opinions, you go off and spin your own little tales about them.

Your plateau of mediocrity isn`t something we could be flattened out to, it`s something we will struggle to re-achieve. I`m infuriated. I`m sure it`s not the case but you`re coming across as oblivious to the problem and devoid of any ideas as to what to do about it.

but you`re coming across as oblivious to the problem and devoid of any ideas as to what to do about it.

How you’ve concluded that is beyond me. “The problem” is one that is extremely complex, and not open to glib solutions such as “bring back grammar schools”. That is why I haven’t said what I think should be done, because it needs more thought than a few snappy slogans.

However, I HAVE said that I think educationalists should lead policy as it seems to me that too much policy is written out on the back of a fag packet in response to the latest moans from the CBI or the headlines in the Express.

Beakie, Virtually everyone I encounter can tell immediately that I was in the army. It`s astounding how many can tell exactly what I did in the army. It`s also astounding how many people tell me that we need to re-introduce national service. You`ll be amazed to hear that I don`t agree with universal conscription. It`s not for everyone. However, that is not to say that a military regime wouldn`t do a lot of good for many young men in this country today.

Watching the news the other morning they found a former Matron, dressed her in her old uniform, and took her to a modern day hospital. She was an old lady but she still had that air of natural authority. A nurse came up and introduced herself, “Hi, I`m the modern matron”. I`m sure she`s a very capable nurse but she came across as a schoolgirl. The old lady replied “I am THE matron”. It spoke volumes. We can`t reintroduce matrons as they once were but again we have a lot to learn from the past.

Blaming our current pitiful educational system on the CBI and the Daily Express is simply pathetic. The CBI consistently complain about dumbing down. No one reads the Express.

As for whining about the situation being complex and looking for a lead from educationalists. How pathetic and defeatist can you be ? That`s the trouble with life in an ivory tower. You read argument and counter argument until everything becomes complex. You end up not knowing where you are or where you`re going. Figuring out how to get there doesn`t even enter the equation. Worst of all you confuse everyone else. That`s one of the primary reasons nursing is such a mess. We`re not sure which model to use or which intervention to choose and while we`re agonising we forget about the bedside and we`ve lost the confidence to intuitively implement simple solutions.

If you gave me charge of a secondary school I wouldn`t be fretting about the complexities. I wouldn`t be waiting for the next batch of research to tell me whether I needed a dedicated police officer, a security guard, CCTV, a metal detector or a naughty step. I would get myself an ex senior NCO from a Guards Regiment to maintain discipline, an ex senior NCO from the Parachute Regiment to absorb the excess energy of the disruptive and to oversee a new emphasis on competitive sport. I would instruct my chemistry, biology and physics department to resume making explosions and dissecting things to switch the boys back on to science. Oh, how I could go on.

I`m not pretending I could deal with every “complexity” but I`d be making significant inroads from day one. Call it glib if you like but it`s simply foolish not to learn from the past.

Blaming our current pitiful educational system on the CBI and the Daily Express is simply pathetic.

Good job I didn’t do that then, isn’t it? Sometimes I swear you don’t actually read my posts, just skim them for key words to react to.

That`s the trouble with life in an ivory tower.

I don’t live in a fucking ivory tower, you gonk. Reading your “solution” makes me laugh. Like fucking Rambo crossed with Mr Mom.

Cos I like to spur on debate…. and to incite more humourous sarcasm from OSB…

Let’s take Edison’s light bulb invention as example.

http://www.intertek-etlsemko.c.....rom_edison

Once news of the light bulb had spread, the public’s greatest concern was how soon electricity would be in their homes to make this luxury available to all. However, Edison was not yet ready to make his product available to everyone. He thought there was still more work to be done to ensure the public’s safety, and wanted time to solve the electricity routing concern.

Even after more than a decade, and the bulbs and lamps had been altered by Edison and his competitors, consumers were still concerned about purchasing products that might cause harm to them, their family or their property. (Of course, the same holds true today.) To address this fear, in 1896 Edison established a Lamp Testing Bureau within his manufacturing facility, then called the Edison Electric Illuminating Company.

The light bulb - great idea.
Ripped off by charlatans
Shoddy work causing significant damage and even death
Quality and Safety concerns - resulting in a whole “Lamp Testing Bureau” to test everything out before killing someone.

If it was good enough for a light bulb…

Even the seemingly simplest of ideas take time, have risks and require significant consideration before just bashing it out there.

Just as you argue that science and technology has brought us many riches - it has also brought us many failings. How can we determine which is which without the research? the audit? the case studies? the evaluation? the meta-analysis? even a literature review (easiest way into print I ever saw).

The most annoying phrase of the era -
“Where is your evidence to say …
“I would get myself an ex senior NCO from a Guards Regiment to maintain discipline, an ex senior NCO from the Parachute Regiment to absorb the excess energy of the disruptive and to oversee a new emphasis on competitive sport. I would instruct my chemistry, biology and physics department to resume making explosions and dissecting things to switch the boys back on to science.

.. is going to work?

I agree that sometimes it seems to be never ending debate and little result. I would advocate a model of think - try - evaluate - think - try - evaluate.. then at least something is getting done. However, as the ‘light bulb knockoffs’ discovered - rushing it can be pretty detrimental.

The nature of research and education is to define:
What is the problem?
What causes it?
How can it be resolved?

Some things are more difficult to resolve - especially the more we unravel them. But that’s the nature of today - we think a lot more (allegedly) and we demand proof before we waste our 12 billion pounds on an IT system… hang on… no we didn’t… but you know what I mean.

Intuition is bound by and to the person from whom it eminates. You may “intuit” only to the limit of your experiences and understanding.

If your intuition works… by all means write about it and tell everyone so we can all do it.
That’s called a case study,

You can get away with dealing with a daily dilemma intuitively.
You cannot re-design the secondary education system for a nation intuitively.

Of course tho, everyone has their critics.. more on Edison….

Some Americans envisioned Edison as a modern Prometheus, who for the sake of humanity, stole fire from the gods. Others viewed the inventor as a Faustian figure, whose great advances could only result through black magic and a pact with the devil. To fully grasp the religious implications of Edison’s feats, it is fitting to see that extremist compared him not just to some obscure Greek god, but Satan himself. In 1890 the Catholic World “proved,” through a mathematical analysis of Edison’s name, that the inventor was, in fact, the devil incarnate

Beakie, Mr Ian plays me with a straight bat. That annoys the hell out of me as I don`t get under his skin. I also don`t like to see people from Australia demonstrating good cricketing technique. Don`t get yourself wound up, it amuses me no end and only encourages me.

Somewhere in America a 5` 2″ female police officer was given the task of escorting a criminal, charged with a serious criminal offence, to court. He overpowered her, stole her revolver and killed two court officials and two other police officers before being brought back into custody. That caused a bit of a hoo ha. In response some research ( your beloved research ) was carried out ( I don`t know whether American research is of a higher standard than that in Mental Health Practice ). The research concluded that certain police tasks, more specifically the deterrence of crime, was best carried out by big ugly blokes. More controversially, the research suggested that it didn`t even matter whether these officers were literate or not.

Now I`m no advocate of illiterate police officers but there is an important point here. For certain roles attributes are as important as education ( not a point that will go down well in the ivory tower`s staff room )

I recently got chatting to a couple at a pub quiz. She was young and a newly qualified teacher. Not 6 weeks into her teaching career pupils pinned her up against a filing cabinet and broke her wrist. I didn`t witness or hear of anything like that in my schooldays. I never saw a knife and I never saw any drugs. Alcohol was a problem but notoriously difficult to access.

Dedicated police officers, security guards, CCTV and metal detectors didn`t come off the top of my head. They`ve all been tried to combat, I won`t call it il discipline, it`s criminal behaviour in our schools. I wonder what the young teacher would make of my suggestion that she have ex-military people on hand to support her. If you don`t believe ex forces people have something to offer in our schools, you`re the bloody gonk.

Trans - global idiocy courtesy of the internet. Hasn`t life in Oz taught you anything about straight thinking and straight taliking.

I went to a big comprehensive with a poor reputation. For the first two years it wasn`t too bad, one deputy headmaster, who was universally feared, maintained discipline. At the end of my second year he left. The place went down the pan in short order. Kids can smell weakness and sense where the boundaries weaken. I thought it was great at the time, I ran riot. Now I recognise it for the disaster it was.

If I was given a headmaster post tomorrow and I could clone Mr. Hughes, I would do so and give him the post. My whole point is that we can take immediate steps to stop the rot. We need people with certain, Mr. Hughes attributes. If teaching can throw them up then fantastic. If teaching can`t, look elsewhere. The Guards can provide me with what I want. What we can`t afford to do is wait for Beakie and the educationalists to sit down, have a think, have a cup of tea, do a bit of research, have another cup of tea….

The additional piece of your argument has wound me up no end. I don`t give a fuck about research, audit, case studies, evaluation and analysis - meta or otherwise. One in four schools in this country doesn`t have a physics teacher. Boys aren`t studying science. How could I possibly make the situation worse than that. Boys like explosions and they like dissecting things. How can that make the situation worse.

As Clarkson would remind us the Australians sole contribution to the world of invention is the rotary clothes line. My sarcasm can`t top that.

Dear God, I wanted to bag Carnedd Llewellyn on this set of days off. The weather forecast is a bit dodgy, I cancel my plans and become addicted to Mental Nurse. I`ll be grateful to get back to work tomorrow.

Beakie, you`re absolutely correct about one thing, I`m very poor at reading things thoroughly before I respond.

Mr Ian, your Edison analogy is a right load of platypus crap. Before Edison, I`m not sure what there was, paraffin and gas lamps, hippo fat candles and our Australian cousins will have been rubbing twigs together. None of it stood comparison to the electric light bulb.

Prior to the British education system of 2008 - which produces a lot of young people either with child or intent on stabbing someone plus a lot of graduates to answer the phone in the call centre, assuming your, very valuable, call hasn`t been placed in a queue - there was the education system in mine and Beakie`s day. My schooling incorporated rather too much mayhem but I ended up with a reasonable basic education. My brighter peers went to sixth form and university and I trust they got pretty decent degrees. Prior to that we had grammar schools. I`ll readily admit that the system was imperfect and unfair but no one can deny the grammars spewed out some well educated people who got good degrees at good universities and went on to do great things.

The education system of 2008 is unacceptable. I`m not pretending, for one second, I can re - design the system. I`m saying the grammar school system at its very worst would be preferrable to the shambles we have now. I`m saying that if we left it to you pair of defeatist, hand wringing fuckwits - a bit more analysis, another flowchart, another risk assessment, another puff on the pipe and a nap in the ivory tower - we`d get bloody nowhere. And I`m saying that there are a number of low cost interventions that could be implemented very quickly and make an immediate difference. If case sudies have their place so does decisive action.

And now I`m off for a drink.

Sorry OSB, I’ve stopped responding to your more obvious trolling.

Come on Beakie, pull yourself together, Mr Ian can dab my googlies away to square leg and he`s a Foster`s addled felon from the outback.

Moving away from the MoS, today`s Independent reports there are now 14,000 knife crimes a year in this country. The Guardian on Sunday is suggesting some health care professionals wear stab vests ( I`m thinking you did the research and Mr Ian the risk assessment ). It`s not pleasant reading. I`m concluding that my call for a couple of military types in each school might be a bit liberal, a platoon of Gurkhas might be more the ticket.

Meanwhile, while you`re engaged in some more mind numbing pondering of the complexities, the Archbishop of York is going to try and sort out the young people. I`m not convinced but I admire him for trying and I`ll applaud him if he`s successful. Doing nothing IS NOT an option.

You see, Beakie, as little as 18 months ago I was a lone right wing voice ranting in the darkness on Mental Nurse. No one agreed with a single word I said. Gradually though, as the NuLabour project unravels, people are migrating, slowly I grant you, towards my way of thinking. I`ve never set foot in a grammar school but I`ve been about a bit. I`ve seen what impact matronly figures can have. I`ve seen what zero tolerance policing can achieve and I`ve seen the effect military ethos can have on young people. I`m not quite as daft as you think I am.

The Guardian on Sunday is suggesting some health care professionals wear stab vests

I’ve taken to wearing mine when I post here or visit Crippen’s site.