I’m going to go briefly off-topic from mental health to discuss a separate (though in some ways related) topic: prostitution and other forms of sex work.
As you lot will know, I can’t resist a good blogfight, and I’ve been lurking on an absolute corker of a cyber-ruckus over at Liberal Conspiracy (See also: this comments thread). A bunch of radical feminists have a guy called Douglas Fox in their sights, and they really, really seem to despise him.
A sample comment:
Douglas Fox on the other hand has no credibility whatsoever in this discussion and I have no intention of doing anything other than dismissing his views out of hand.
So, what’s he done to incur the wrath of a pitchfork-wielding mob of rad fems? As far as I can gather, the bullet points are as follows.
1. Douglas Fox is a spokesman for the International Union of Sex Workers, who campaign for the legalisation of prostitution, and for better rights and safety for sex workers.
2. He runs an escort agency, which according to the feminists, means he’s an oppressor, not a spokesperson, and therefore has no right to speak for sex workers.
3. Actually Douglas Fox insists it’s his civil partner that runs the agency, and he himself is a male escort, but that point seems to be getting lost in the shouting.
4. Nobody has shown any evidence that he’s abused his position either as an agency owner or as a union activist.
5. Even so, cue lots of shrieking of “you have no right to speak for sex workers!” and “you’re a PIMP!”
I don’t actually know Douglas Fox, but in the comments threads (particularly here) he consistently comes across as more reasonable and informed than the people who are attacking him. Also, and I suspect some of the radical feminists will say I’m being naive in thinking this, he does come across as genuinely sincere in wanting sex workers to be protected from violence and exploitation.
So what’s causing all this vilification? As far as I can gather, a lot of it seems to be down to what one thinks would be a solution to the age-old issue of prostitution. On the one hand, there’s the IUSW, who want decriminalisation and for sex work to be turned into a legitimate industry. On the other, there’s this particular strand of radical feminism, who want exit strategies to be provided for the sex workers themselves, and for all others involved (clients, pimps, brothel owners etc) to be stamped upon with a mighty hoof.
The fact that Douglas Fox is a man (albeit a gay male escort) probably makes it all the easier for the radical feminists to launch ad hominem attacks rather than engage with the issues.
Speaking personally, getting wanked off in the back room of a sauna really isn’t my idea of fun. Even so, I’m inclined to agree with the IUSW that prostitution has always been with us and that if it’s turned into a legitimate, regulated industry, that should at least reduce a lot of the harm associated with sex work (assaults on prostitutes, STIs, human trafficking etc). As for these feminists who want the trade stamped out, when has that ever worked?
Possibly all this boils down to the question, if organisations like the IUSW are not entitled to speak on behalf of sex workers, then who is? Middle-class radical feminist academics?
Speaking personally, getting wanked off in the back room of a sauna really isn’t my idea of fun.
Where would you prefer I took you?
LMFAO – and who put the avatar to my name?
Cockheads.
That was me. Got it from your picture in The Team page
This is one of those really sketchy areas where people drag up all sorts of so called morals to win an argument, failing to see it logically. Putting aside the evils of sex trafficing and exploitation, it goes without saying need to be addressed, because they are truly awful. However, looking at the concept of prostitution in general.
Whilst I totally understand that some people find the whole topic repulsive and want to protect the poor prostitutes etc, these seem to be the sort of people who have never actually asked the prostitutes whether they want to be saved. I have it on fairly good authority that the higher section of this workforce actually like what they do, and make a great life for themselves. They are not all forced into it, and a considerable amount of them are normal people just earning a living. A bloody good living, they earn considerably more than I do.
As long as the matter is personal choice then it’s just a legal issue. I say sort out the people coercing and forcing it upon sex workers. Then if the fem-bots want to free the rest of the workers, give them a big van and send them out to “free the opressed” and whilst you are at it, make sure they have a camera crew because it would make a brilliant TV series.
Lola x
I’ve got embroiled in a discussion on this issue elsewhere, I just want to see if I’ve got an avatar.
Yes. You all got avatars inflicted on you. Feel free to change. Avatars should be turning up in posts as well.
AHA!
Look at places where prostitution is legalised and regulated, and I’m sure you will agree that it has made life a lot safer for those involved.
Prostitution is unfortunately often linked to drug abuse, but as mental health workers, what can you do if you are faced with someone who is obviously not going to give up selling themselves if this is what pays for their addiction?
Whilst on placement on an acute ward, I met several voluntary patients who had a history of prostitution, and they were supported in gaining access to sexual health services while they were on the ward.
By regulating the sex industry, hopefully the most damaging areas such as drug use, human trafficking and the use of underage girls can be minimised, and that can only be a good thing?
Ah, a comment that’s actually about prostitution rather than avatars.
And yes, Gutter Girl, I couldn’t agree more.
I have nothing exciting to contribute but wanted to see my avatar
Slightly more on-topic though; surely feminists in particular would agree that a woman has the absolute right to decide what to do with her own body? If she wants to make money off it then why not? Of course following this, the only way to make sure people aren’t being coerced is to regulate it. I always took the view that it’s the punter being screwed (pardon the pun) given some of the prices the high class ones charge…but then I live in a town where you can get sex for a pound. And probably a dose of the clap thrown in free…
Actually, talking about prostitution with that avatar feels a little wrong…
I’m only replying to see if I was blessed with an avatar
I’m guessing there probably is a way to add your own avatar.
That’s just a little large me thinks?
Ah yes, but would these be the same feminists who picket the Miss World contest, because those women are debasing themselves and the whole of womankind and destroying the integrity of the entire feminist movement de blah de blah
?
Cos the ones round near me have never been particularly interested in personal choice unless that involved militant feminism.
Still I could be wrong…
Differently
Am I’m the only one that could be identified from my avartar?
It constantly irritates me that feminists seem to assume that all workers in the sex industry are female.
Indeed. I do wonder whether this Douglas guy would have had nearly as vicious a reception if he’d been a female escort rather than a male one.
Maybe not quite as vicious, but I’m sure accusations of selling out the sisterhood would have been thrown around.
It constantly irritates me that feminists seem to assume that all workers in the sex industry are female.
This.
And I also wanted to see my avatar
0_0 what is that????
It is you
You can change your avatar from your user profile which you get by clicking your name on the dashboard.
It looks like a tired out male ‘member’ of the sex industry.
LOL!
I don’t actually have an opinion, I just want to see my avatar.
Sex industry is regulated over here (at least I’ve heard it is in some parts.. .*ahem*).
I agree with the idea it’s often a matter of choice. And keeping it criminalised keeps it underground and that’s not good.
I’m not sure why it can’t be a valid occupation if they can still have the Catholic church.
In New Zealand they work in co operative’s don’t they? Seems like a good system to me.
I personally do think it should be legalised in brothels. Taking workers off the street reduces the risk of harm to them. They can be inspected to ensure reasonable standards and working conditions. The criminality element can be removed and they can be taxed the same as any other business. Prohibition of any kind merely makes violent gangsters very rich.
Hmm… H.M. Inspector of Prostitutes?
They tried legalizing cannabis is Oz; I think it just gave gangsters a useful alternative currency for heroin deals.
In Holland, behind the legalized coffee shops there are some pretty heavy dudes. I think you’ll find the same is true of those quaint little “shps” staffed by superannuated till girls.
I don’t see how part legalizing prostitution will remove its links to pornography and hard drugs. I suppose it may help a bit.
Umm… Have any of you ever met a real live pimp?
How do you think “Lucky” is going to react to his best girls going into a state brothel?
There was a big hoo-ha in Western Australia about how decriminalisation of possession of small quantities of cannabis “obviously wasn’t working” because people who were caught weren’t turning up to their mandatory counselling sessions or paying their fines. However, the number of people using cannabis dropped in that same time frame, so surely that’s a good outcome?
Hands up who would be happy for their loved ones to become prostitutes.
As I thought.
Personally, I’ve come to the conclusion that decriminalisation should only be an interim measure to protect prostitutes with the eventual aim being the eradication of this horrible trade in human beings. The approach when prostitutes are picked up by the cops should be about offering them exit routes rather than prosecution.
I don’t deny or judge someone on the decision to be a prostitute.
I would dislike my partner doing it – because I want that sanctity for myself – but not because I think it’s morally wrong of her to allow her body to be used for someone else’s physical and emotional benefit.
The amoralisation of prostitution exists only in the minds of people. As does child abuse, racism or tramp bashing. But in prostitution we are assuming a victim – because it does not equate to our virtues and because we might choose to not be ‘a victim’. But if a prostitute does not regard themselves as a victim and deliberately chooses to sell their body for sex – is this something anyone else has a right to say “no, you can’t”?
There are similarities in the right to suicide – yes, there are a multitude of arguments for and against – but essentially we are opposing someone else doing what they might choose to simply because we aren’t comfortable with it.
I accept your personal expression that you regard it as a ‘horrible trade in human beings’ – and coercive prostitution certainly is – but for those who reason that is it is an acceptable decision for them I cannot see a victim.
I can. It’s my belief, from talking to people who have prostituted themselves, that there is something uniquely life-sapping about selling your body. I also doubt very much that people who have made a rational choice to be a prostitute are in the majority.
Some significant differences as well though:)
.
I can. My understanding is (and I could well be wrong) is that the majority of people who sell sex tend to do it to feed serious drug habits. Or from here:
I am not saying prostitution is a mental health issue, not wanting to bring Ted down upon me. (That sounded wrong) But many of us work in an area where we deal with people who make wrong decisions based on wrong perceptions. Just because some prostitutes do not see themselves as victims does not mean they are not victims. I suspect there is a significant difference between some Avant Garde high class agency escort having a quick shag for a hundred quid and some street level woman doing blowjobs for a tenner to feed her habit, or her pimp’s habit.
Should it be legalised? Probably not. Should it be decriminalised? Probably yes. Should it be recignised as a fact of life and made much easier for ‘working women’ to get help, support and assistance? Yes.
beakie & DnC
I can agree there are plenty who, in an unregulated manner, have survival sex and a person choosing to be a prostitute to feed a drug habit is not making a choice of ‘free will’. I agree they are a victim; perhaps not of the pimp or the drug pusher – tho often it is by their design.
But I still see a group of people who freely choose to be prostitutes.
Even the H/O quote, DnC, states “most” – not “all”.
Some areas of Oz are regulated – and done well. Those employees are looked after as employees and have employment rights.
However, there are still those who are ‘regulated’ working for some not so regulated employers.
and prosecuting their clients?
Yep. I see no problem with refocusing the criminality on the punters
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7736436.stm
Wasn’t quite what I was looking for, but I do remember from a while back the debate over prostitution and the fact that technically it’s legal in your own home as long as you don’t solicit.
Anyway I agree with the basic premise that legalising it would make it a lot safer. Kind of like the whole amnesty on arresting people for drugs they’d already taken meant more people showed up to the hospital after overdoses.
They does however need some consideration made for sex slaves. Yes there is a big difference, but human trafficking is very real and the law needs to be changed to protect those the victims of this. Actually legalising prostitution might help with this and the whole underage issue too, since sex workers could work with the police, rather than being afraid of being thrown into prison by them.
That’s my twopence worth anyway,
Differently
human trafficking is very real and the law needs to be changed to protect those the victims of this. Actually legalising prostitution might help with this and the whole underage issue too, since sex workers could work with the police, rather than being afraid of being thrown into prison by them.
Yep. I’d agree with this point.
My own opinion would be in favour of brothels and escort agencies being legalised and regulated, with regular and stringent inspection to look after the health, safety and welfare of the workers and to guard against human trafficking and exploitation of juveniles. As for street prostitution, I’d be in favour of treating the punters as criminals and the workers as victims in need of support and an exit strategy.
Regulation and legalisation (and then taxation) seem the only way to go (unfortunately) for the protection of sex-workers, and given that the whole world (including China) now seems to think that enterprise and selling and consumerism is what makes for human happiness, it’s no surprise. Will the recession make a difference, either to the profits of the sex industry or the attitude of ‘sell everything’? I wonder.
Statistics clearly show that the vast majority of people embarking on prostitution are amongst the most vulnerable people in society. Of course there will always be programmes on tv that glamorise prostitution (thank-you very much Billy Piper..), however how often is this the reality?
If you stumble across the red light district in my area you will see that the majority of these women and men are only working the streets to fund serious drug habits, then you have to look at the reasons why they turned to drugs in the first place and from my own personal experience of working with sex workers, a large amount of them have been victims of sexual abuse and have very little regard for thier own self worth.
It is indeed a very tricky matter though, if prostituation was to be legalised and regulated perhaps these individuals would be better protected from some of the skum bags out there, then again if it was to be legalized, as pointed out earlier, the issue of taxation would come into the picture, black market prostitution would rear its ugly head and the most vulnerable
would suffer.